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1 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:46:09am

It’s interesting that Jews will analyze antisemitism into fine particulate matter, and yet, we still find ourselves paralyzed in the face of it.

This was a nice article. However, I really think we’ve got to move the ball forward.

2 shutdown  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:47:26am

re: #1 Bob Levin

We can only move forward by building on a foundation of clear understanding. I thought this article went a long way in providing that foundation.

3 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:32:32pm

re: #2 imp_62

It’s a good article, within the limitations that keep us from solving the problem. I’ve seen, what, nearly a hundred articles like this, more than a hundred? Certainly I’ve been in hundreds of discussions that don’t get any farther.

To me, it’s like we are at the ditch with the guns behind us, and we respond by saying—‘We understand the intellectual foundations that brought us together.’ This is the norm.

Doesn’t this sound just a little bit Kafkaesque?

4 shutdown  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:39:10pm

re: #3 Bob Levin

More like the fatalism of a people that is resigned to both being hated, and surviving despite that hatred. If we could find the energy to throw off the fatalism and address the hatred at its roots, we might be able to change outcomes. Otherwise, it is less Kafkaesque than it is Santayana-esque.

5 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:16:10pm

re: #4 imp_62

You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred.

We treat the European exile as if it’s Halacha. The exile is a variable. What if went to China, or India? The very translation of the Torah would be different. Our sense of anatomy and physiology would be different.
Our view of the universe would be different.

Unconsciously, we do this anyway—the JuBu’s. And our institutions can’t address the issue with anything more meaningful than—there’s idol worship in them thar Himalayas.

Kafkaesque. I mean, was Gregor ever bugged that he became a bug? I forget.

6 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:20:45pm

Interesting article, but I haven’t had a chance to read the whole thing yet as I keep getting interrupted. I’ll read it later tonight when things quiet down. I have questions forming in my head, but I can’t really articulate them yet. I’ll wait to see if the rest of the article addresses them, then come back tomorrow and ask them if it doesn’t.

7 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:33:26pm

re: #4 imp_62

We like use the Superchicken quote around the house. It’s a phrase of endearment. A lovely accessory to any conversation.

8 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:37:54pm

re: #6 CuriousLurker

The bottom line, for some people, Dachau is a wet dream. How they dress up around their hearts, many ensembles to choose from. And this would be a strong point of the article, showing the many ways to dress up this emotion.

9 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:56:37pm

re: #8 Bob Levin

Seriously? I mean there’s bigotry and racism—if the term racism can be applied to anti-Semitism (I’m not sure that it can)—then there’s murderous hatred. There’s plenty of the former in the world, and it can certainly take an ugly turn towards the latter, but it doesn’t always do so.

Dachau level hatred is different to me. For example there are plenty of people who hate Mormons, Muslims, blacks, hispanics, etc. but I don’t think most of them would round them up and shoot or gas them, at least not under normal circumstances.

10 EiMitch  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:59:10pm

So, the reason antisemitism is cool again is because Jews have been dehumanized by the haters? What a revelation! I never would’ve guessed it.

Yes, I know we need to build bridges of better understanding and **insert feel-good cliche here**. And yes, the occasional reminders are necessary.

But waxing intellectual about the time-(dis)honored tradition of scapegoating is not really helping. Its just being pretentious about the things we already know.

Besides, the differences between ancient and modern antisemitism are not so different as to change the nature of the beast. The problem isn’t that complicated. Neither is the solution: Just keep pointing out that double-standards are double-standards, and scapegoating is scapegoating. Cognitive dissonance will do the rest.

Don’t believe me? It’s already begun. Just check-out how many countries have bailed-out of the Durban III conference so far. The haters’ pretense is collapsing.

11 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:14:37pm

re: #9 CuriousLurker

Welcome to our world.

12 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:25:10pm

re: #10 EiMitch

Okay, let’s watch Durban, and since so many of us here are watchful of antisemitism, we’ll be on the lookout for any notable changes.

13 sliv_the_eli  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:42:48pm

re: #10 EiMitch

Don’t believe me? It’s already begun. Just check-out how many countries have bailed-out of the Durban III conference so far. The haters’ pretense is collapsing.

Actually, very few. A mere 14 out of 193 member states of the United Nations have announced that they will not participate in the Durban III hatefest. That means nearly 93% of the UN’s member states will participate.

Which brings me to my fundamental agreement with your statement that ” waxing intellectual about the time-(dis)honored tradition of scapegoating is not really helping.” The one thing that, in my opinion, helps is the one thing that has changed since the Shoah and earlier outbreaks of genocidal antisemitism, namely the advent of the Jewish state and the birth of the so-called “new Jew” who is ready, willing and able to defend himself, his family and his community. No apologies, no appeals to the king for the right to do so.

It is this fundamental shift in the paradigm of Jewish existence of the past two millennia that the world, and particularly the Christian world otherwise known as “Europe”, has still not come to grips with, and that - again, my opinion only — underlies much of the reflexive anti-Israelism in the world today.

14 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:56:09pm

re: #13 sliv_the_eli

I completely agree with you about the importance of Israel. The same historical elements were at play in 1942 and there were extant in 1967—the only difference, the State of Israel, and the outcomes were much different.

But you speak of the presence of the New Jew. I’ll talk about the Old Jew, of scripture, where we were told about 1942, and that simply being a Zionist would not be enough to survive. It’s not about steel and gunpowder, but rather, as Jeremiah said, the ability to cry one proper tear. Seems easy, until you consider we live in a world where we are so disconnected from ourselves, so alienated, that feeling anything properly and fully would be a task Siddhartha would need three lifetimes to pull off.

So we need to understand the old tools, in an old paradigm—not a European paradigm, to truly be able to know who it is we fight, and be able to win. In the words of Rabbi Sun Tzu, a leader must be “serene and inscrutable” and capable of comprehending “unfathomable plans”. [Wikipedia: Sun Tzu]

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.

So the problem is—how can you fight a battle that is both spiritual and physical, in a world that is filled with anomie, alienation, and disassociation? That’s why we need some Old Jew.

15 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:57:45am

Just an aside: Dachau is not a fitting metaphor for the Holocaust. Auschwitz is, but Dachau is not. While Dachau concentration camp, the seminal nazi concentration camp indeed, had a gas chamber on its premises, it was probably never used for any mass gassings (Jews or non-Jews). Dachau existed since 1933, and it was located near Munich, firmly on proper German Reich territory. The actual extermination camps were situated in what had previously been Poland and Belarus (notwithstanding the fact that a lot of mass killings of Jews happened under the clear sky in the Baltics and in Ukraine) and did not start operating until 1941.

See also this series of articles by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum to get an understanding of the changing nature of the nazi concentration camp system:

Concentration Camps, 1933-1939
Concentration Camps, 1939-1942
Concentration Camps, 1942-1945

16 Bob Levin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 5:45:06am

re: #15 000G

You raise a very interesting point regarding a fitting metaphor for the Holocaust, and not just an academic point. We know where Auschwitz fits in. No further elaboration needed.

But, what about Dachau? I think this becomes a metaphor for the post-war Nazis, those tried at Nuremberg, who served brief prison sentences, and those criminals that escaped through organization like Odessa and used the Rat Lines. These mostly ex-Gestapo agents found that they had marketable skills in the rest of the world, specifically in the tyrannies of the world.

Tyrants must have their secret police, and they must torture their citizens. It’s what tyrants do. After the war, in midst of the nationalist movements throughout the world, the tyrants began to take hold. I don’t want to belabor this point, but many of these governments welcomed the Nazis with open arms, protecting them from Israel’s attempts to bring them to justice. They welcomed the Nazis because of the Nazi expertise at torture, torture without murder.

In other words, the less skillful native ‘interrogators’ found that those being examined died rather quickly. It took the Nazi skill to keep these victims alive for prolonged torture.

Consequently, for the post war period (post war for the rest of the world, the war never ended for the Jewish people), the Dachau metaphor is true, as in an arrow being true in its journey to the bulls eye.

That was the essence of Dachau, slavery, and sustained torture, and most importantly a series of cancers throughout the world, undiagnosed because people did not want to know, because leaders protected their state ‘security’ from scrutiny, nurturing a virus that attacks the conscious, promoting the general inability throughout the world, to tell the difference between right and wrong.

The question, just how far does the Dachau metaphor extend—at what point do people not let it creep into their consciousness in the form of avoidance, refusing to fall for techniques that resemble peer pressure, or stopping the development of Stockholm syndromes by walking out of the state of conscious we can all Stockholm?

The BDS efforts attempt to isolate Israel, turn Israel from a country into a camp, isolated from world consciousness. They seek to turn Israel into Dachau. It won’t work, because we know. The Jews know. But what about the ex-Nazis and their willing students peppered throughout each country in the world, out of the reach of conventional justice. Their efforts increase each day. They live for one thing only—the final solution.


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